Episode Title: The Report: Dr. Allan Meyer’s Report on Casey City Church
Published: Sunday 8th June, 2025
Length: ~10 minutes
Voice: Goodness in the Wild Host
Tags: #SpiritualAbuse #ChurchAccountability #DrAllanMeyer #CaseyCityChurch #CoerciveControl #TovChurch #RestoringTheChurch #LarrySebastian
🔊 Episode Description
In this powerful and reflective episode of Goodness in the Wild, we unpack the landmark report by Dr. Allan Meyer—commissioned along with the External Interim Eldership in 2023 to investigate serious allegations of harm and abuse of power at Casey City Church, Melbourne.
Over 30 testimonies were presented. Twelve biblical qualifications for leadership were found unmet. Yet, the leadership remains.
This is the story of a church community at a crossroads, and a call for truth, justice, and healing. We explore what the report revealed, what it means for survivors, and how we move forward when the institution stays silent.
🎧 Listen and share:
👉 Read the full report by Dr. Allan Meyer (November 2023)
👉 Explore survivor accounts and findings
👉 Learn about the Victorian Inquiry into Cults and Coercive Control
👉 Find out more - TovChurch.org
Dr Allan Meyer Transcript of Report November 2023
My role was to present to the Casey City Church as I’m about to present to you. Our report on the thing that we were commissioned to do. That is to assess, review, and look at the charges that were made against Larry Sebastian and Christa Sebastian that resulted in the call for their resignation and the appropriateness of that.
And as a result, that was the focus of our work and the focus of a lot of the energy that we’ve put into this. And I know that some of you have felt somewhat overlooked at times because of that, but the reality is that was the that was the core of what we were asked to do. And so that was the core of where most of our attention went: who are these people?
Are their charges, legitimate? And what should be the outcome of that? The first day that I was in the church there at Casey, I read this passage to the ones who were gathered from 1 [00:01:00] Timothy chapter 5, which I accepted as the responsibility I would carry if I were going to get involved in this.
Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. But those elders who are sinning, you are to reprove before everyone so that the others may take warning. I charge you in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels to keep these instructions without partiality and to do nothing out of favoritism.
And just reading that passage each time I’ve done it, will make your heart tremble because you realized you’re carrying a responsibility. I charge you in the sight of God, in the side of Christ Jesus, and then the elect angels get involved as well. Thank you very much. That’s my examination board.
And as a result, I am required [00:02:00] to keep these instructions of assessing the appropriateness of an elder without partiality and to show no favoritism. Over the months we have received over 30 statements from past and present members.
What complicated, our involvement and has been a significant challenge is the concern from many of you that you’re, you’re, you’re statements remained confidential.
I know that that presented Pastor Kevin Manning with a challenge, it presented us with a challenge, but that’s what you wanted and it’s one of the reasons that it’s taken quite as long as it has. Just one of the reasons it’s taken quite as long as it has. Another reason is because you’re dealing with very complex issues and people’s lives are at stake.
So you just don’t rush through to a judgment on this stuff. We have been involved in many hours of reading statements followed with many hours of conversations and discussions over and over again. The hours that have been spent in [00:03:00] seeking to not only understand the claims and the stories that we’ve read, but then understanding, the circumstance into which we’re trying to communicate.
Some of those stories go all the way back to 2011, and, historic reports, in fact, we’ve found them to be of significant value.
The significance of the older statements is to begin to see, the kind of things that have been struggled with over an extended period of time and to see whether anything has actually changed and the reality is that the story from at least 2011 onwards is very consistent.
We have engaged with letters of resignation in which former members and elders have explained in significant detail why they have reluctantly resigned. And the unfortunate but consistent theme has been the treatment of people at the hands of Pastor Larry, and [00:04:00] to a lesser extent, Christa. I made an ad hoc comment at the other group that I’ll attempt to make here as well.
I don’t see Pastor Larry as a bad man. He’s a damaging man, but I don’t see him as a bad man. And I feel profoundly for Pastor Christa, for Christa. Do I call her Pastor Christa? Is that? No? No? Okay. I I feel profoundly for her, in particular. Larry is a founder. He’s a man who has a vision. He’s had a vision and he’s pursued it.
The tragedy, or the difficulty, is that in the midst of that vision, there is a measure of brokenness and personality issues that get mixed in with his drive, To create something, produce something, achieve something. And under pressure, it is demonstrated that he damages people. And our heart for Pastor [00:05:00] Christa has been whatever personality issues she has, it has been complicated by trying to be a good Christian wife in an atmosphere that she has not personally created.
It’s more created by her husband. And she tries to survive in the midst of it. And as a result is often found to be protecting that which she ought to be exposing simply in trying to survive, now that that’s my personal unprofessional opinion. And the, compassion we have for both of them as people.
We have sought to assess the significance of the experiences of the past and present members, but put them in the light of scripture and the scripture that we’ve chosen are the 31 qualifications of pastors and elders as expressed in 1 Timothy, Titus, and Peter. It’s an interesting list when you [00:06:00] work your way through the whole thing.
The challenge you’d think, well, can anyone be a pastor? And the answer is, it isn’t a calling for everybody and it’s not supposed to be a calling for everybody. And it’s supposed to be, a list of qualifications that are not ignored because people in authority do more damage than people who are not in authority, People who have charge over other people in positions of authority have the potential in their mistakes to do more damage than people Who do not have those same flaws or the same authority.
A good elder is supposed to be able to refute error. You’ve got to be able to exhort in sound doctrine. You’ve got to be capable of teaching, and make sense in the process. There needs to be an eagerness to serve, one that comes out of no sense of reluctance, [00:07:00] motivated by godly desire and appointed by the Holy Spirit.
One who does not lord it over the flock of God. Someone who is sensible and prudent. Someone who’s not given to whims, pendulum swings of emotion, attitudes or perspectives. Someone who is self disciplined, as an athlete might be, avoiding unprofitable things while pursuing that which is good. Free from the love of money, not doing it for the money.
A good example to the flock, one that everybody could be encouraged to follow. Be like that person, not quick tempered, not a drunkard, a lover of that which is good. Temperate, that is not given to unwise, self serving or self consuming extremes. Someone who is upright and just and righteous. Does the right thing for the right reasons.[00:08:00]
Gentle. Gentle. A word that means someone who exhibits patience, graciousness, considerateness, kindness, and forgiveness. Someone who is not self willed, not driven just by their own particular determination to achieve an end. Hospitable, not violent, not quarrelsome, not a new convert, above reproach, of good reputation, both inside and outside the church.
Devout, a life reflecting the characteristics of someone who understands the holiness of God. Respectable, behaving in a dignified and well behaved manner. Faithful to the word, with well behaved children, managing his own household well. and a one woman man when you’re dealing [00:09:00] with males. It’s quite a list.
Um, who is sufficient for these things? And the answer is, well, it’s not easy. Christ has made us able ministers of a new covenant. So you can find these people, and you can find them actually in virtually every church. Oh, not in perfection, but it’s clear enough that this is the kind of person you’re dealing with.
In the light of those 31 qualifications, we found that in at least 12 of them, Larry, is a deficient and, disqualified leader. One who does not lord over or domineer the flock. There are far too many stories that speak to that issue. Sensible and prudent, not given to whims, pendulum swings of emotions, attitudes, or perspectives.
Far too many [00:10:00] stories. in which decisions are made ad hoc, even formally made decisions are overruled, people who have been given authority suddenly discovering that their authority has been taken away, criticized for a failure, having been delegated a responsibility for which they were never trained.
The swings of moods and the attitudes and perspective produced very, very, confused and shamed people. A good example to the flock a person when others can imitate with confidence. Sometimes that would be true other times you would not want your husband to speak to a wife in the way sometimes in public and in meetings Larry has done to his wife. Not quick tempered. Too many stories about Larry being quick to anger, easily provoked. Temperate, not given to unwise, self serving or self [00:11:00] consuming extremes.
Too many stories of unpredictability. And upright, just and righteous. Too many stories about decisions having been made that just lacked the smell of justice and of righteousness and uprightness. Too often, decisions made around the degree to which a person is approved of or seen to be on the team or the the right kind of person to be treated with kindness. Too often decisions made that were not in the eyes of those involved a righteous or a just decision to make.
Gentle, well, again, patience, graciousness, considerateness, kindness, and forgiveness. All too many stories about those humiliating moments in which a person might be, even behind closed doors in one on one [00:12:00] encounters, treated in a way that would leave a person coming out of that office with tears or trembling, shaken, and needing the assistance of others
before they’ve left that building. Because of the humiliation, the shame, the feelings of having been beaten, given a beating in the, in the headmaster’s office. Not self willed. Too often, stories of simply making decisions that had never been appropriately agreed to, or reversing decisions that had been appropriately agreed to.
Above reproach, of good reputation, and, both inside and outside the church. Too many stories for there to be, a reputation that’s unbroken inside and outside the church. And at times, not dignified, not respectable or well behaved. The summary that we brought to the church this morning and we bring to you today [00:13:00] is that while this is a man who sincerely wants to serve God, has a genuine, vision and ministry and desire in his heart.
But who all too often is involved in hypocrisy, appearance management, uses fear as a controlling mechanism, is inconsistent to the point of distress to those who have to work alongside him, is deaf to what he does not want to hear, and is willing to both humiliate and intimidate. Out of that, we charged the church today that there is a culture that exists that is constitutional in word, but not in practice.
Not in deed. Minutes of meetings are often, totally ignored, including the operation of meetings under the constitution. Child safety measures can all too often [00:14:00] be overlooked in order to achieve a goal that someone is determined to achieve. Meetings with vulnerable people too often concluded with distress.
Reports to the police, and to the Commission of Child and Youth Protection (CCYP), young people. Where those investigations are all up to is unknown, but five male children from the ages of five to eleven have been the subject of reports to the CCYP and the police involving intimidation, physical shaking of males
witnessed by staff and other children, Two female children, 11 and 8, physically and verbally intimidated, resulting in reports to both police and the CCYP. Three female staff members physically intimidated and verbally abused. Two of those witnessed by other staff. And while there are no claims of a sexual nature, no one has put anything on the table that [00:15:00] suggests, that, Pastor Larry is involved in a sexually inappropriate way with anybody.
there is, however, unfortunately, an all too, consistent disregard for child safety standards and the toleration of the disregard of child safety standards. Work safe issues, setting staff up to fail with a view to humiliation and termination. And under his leadership, a culture has been allowed to develop that ought not to be permitted to continue.
As a result, it is our recommendation that Larry and Christa resign from leadership and take time to address a range of emotional and relational issues personally. While this is our advice, it needs to be understood clearly that registered members are the only ones who can activate that. The eldership does not have the power to remove the senior minister from office.
We [00:16:00] can suggest it, which is what we have done as the eldership. We have now put before the whole church our advice that Larry and Christa resign from leadership, and take time out to address a range of emotional and relational issues. However, the activation of that advice can only be done by the registered members voting in an appropriately, constitutionally arranged meeting in which you have full knowledge of what you’re voting on 21 days prior and then 75 percent of the voting membership need to approve of their dismissal should they decide not to do that willingly.
Knowing that that creates a significant stress for many people, we have determined to put three ways forward. On the table for everybody’s consideration. And here is the first: The first option is that Larry and Christa take our advice and resign [00:17:00] from the leadership. Should they be willing to take that step?
Peter and myself, along with others whom we would co opt along the way, would then come alongside the congregation, to assist them to rebuild a different future. That the advisory panel would remain the elders of the church until we have been able to raise a new eldership who can then take our place.
That the advisory panel would construct a compensation package to see Larry and Christa supported for two years to provide counseling support for their family, et cetera, and to be released into a better future. Myself and Peter would work alongside or work with Larry and Christa to implement a carefully considered transition plan.
And the advisory panel would separate the businesses from the church legal [00:18:00] structure and seek ways to be able to maintain their viability. Now, in the light of our involvement, should the church vote that way, what we would be, be looking for, as Peter has already said, from this group of people in particular, understanding that, we would be willing under these circumstances to walk this journey with you: That we would be looking for strong statements of support from this group, that they would trust us to deal justly, wisely, and in the spirit of the Lord, and remove the elements into any of the discussions in the future that would bring conflict, allow us to negotiate the financial matters that lie ahead, and ensure that, those who are injured and harmed are cared for without there being a necessity to spend the [00:19:00] church’s funds on legal fees, on courts, on lawyers and allow the financial redress
of harmed individuals to be the responsibility of the future leadership as we move forward. That would be our first option. The second option is this, Larry and Christa choose not to follow our advice. Now, in the eventuality that Larry and Christa over the next days decide they will not take our advice, then as an, advisory panel, we will call a special general meeting with a motion that Larry and Christa be removed from their leadership position.
To succeed, that motion will require 75 percent of the church to vote in favour. If 75 percent or more of the registered members vote against that proposition, then Larry and Christa remain as the pastors. In that eventuality, the advisory panel would see themselves [00:20:00] having no concrete, workable, sensible future role.
It would result in us handing back the church to its current leadership. The church conflict would remain unresolved.We would consider what appropriate steps we could take as an eldership, as we exited from the situation, but that would be the pathway we would be taking. We are not prepared to sign up for an endless war.
Life is too short and I don’t think anyone should be wanting to sign up for a future war, but we would take whatever appropriate steps we could take as we move to exit from our position of authority, before we left the field.
There is a third option, and that is the general meeting accepts the motion for dismissal. In that case, if 75 percent or more of the registered members agree with our motion, we would go [00:21:00] back to, proposition number one. Peter and myself would act to co opt other, significant and helpful leadership. to come alongside the congregation with a view to rebuilding a different future, a different culture, and a different outcome.
We would remain as the elders in that situation while we build a new eldership team. We would still construct a compensation package for Larry and Christa for two years and seek to help them deal with their own stuff. We would then,seek to work with whoever we could find to allow the businesses to be separated from the church and maintain their ongoing viability. That is the, proposition which I put before the meeting, this afternoon.
Would anyone like to ask a question on [00:22:00] that?
The first option is that not taken to a meeting that it’s up to Larry and, and Christa to resign as volunteers. Is that what you’re actually saying? Okay. That’s all I wanted to make clear.
If they, if they voluntarily resign then of course, there’s no need for us to go to a meeting.
Yes. Yes. We are the eldership. Okay, no problems Thank you. Yeah down the back. There’s a question.
When it comes to being a member, I mean, we’ve been in the left the church over 10 years. So i’m assuming our membership has been cancelled, but we’ve never had any notification or been told that we are no longer members or, part of the congregation. So seeing as I haven’t well in writing denied my membership
Former Member/Leader: does that mean I’m still an active member and can
Allan Meyer: vote?
I think you find the constitution frames membership in terms of active involvement it’s a very valid question ’cause it raises the question of who’s a member and who gets to vote and who doesn’t.
That’s right. Um, we are negotiating that between Kevin and Larry to ensure that the list we have is one that everybody’s [00:23:00] prepared to say, okay, we’ll accept this as the membership list and those are the people who have an opportunity to vote.
Former Member/Leader: Sure, my other thing is that Larry is very well known to agree with things that have been brought before him and then later on down the track turned around and tried to change those what do you call them, avenues or ways of doing things, so I really struggle with the context of trust and what Larry is actually going to say to you and then is he going to follow through on those things.
Allan Meyer: Well, it’s irrelevant what Larry says, because, this is an issue of a proposition, a legal proposition under the constitution being placed before the voting members. What the voting members decide is what the voting members get. And Larry has no power to change that. Well, he has no power to change it.
We may have ignored the constitution in the past, but the current eldership knows how to read a constitution and we do know how to make it work. [00:24:00] So this is not about Larry suddenly appearing to say or do something different because this is a legal constitution and, there is an eldership there that’s quite capable of ensuring that what we do, honors that constitution.
Former Member/Leader: How, how viable are the three businesses? Well, four, wait, yeah, but how viable are the businesses that are obviously being separated from?
Allan Meyer: I have no idea. No? Okay. No, that’s not been the, that’s not been the issue of our, investigation. Depending on how this vote unfolds, there’ll be some, important discussions around that process.
But there are people who, for whom this represents their livelihood. This is what matters to us. These are people, they’re people with marriages and families, people trying to make a life, and the only reason we’ve stuck in with this is because of the people, because of you and because of them.
We care about everybody. And, if God and Jesus and the angels are going to [00:25:00] say, how did you treat those people, Al? I just need to make sure. That before I step away from this, I’m very clear that I didn’t play favorites. I allowed the truth to be the truth. I allowed the Bible to speak.
And without fear or favor, I said what needed to be said, and then other people have decisions to make. So, we care about the people and the businesses are not irrelevant, but they’ve become entangled with the church. And sadly, there’s a culture within some of the businesses that does not reflect well on the church and that has to be addressed. But that would be a secondary approach.
This is the primary one… Down the back. Oh, sorry. No, Karen’s got that.
Karen Alsop: In terms of membership, there’s probably quite a lot of people here that would have been attending for a long time never actually got given the opportunity or it wasn’t raised for them to become members. They didn’t know about [00:26:00] it.
They thought they were members. I don’t know whether there’s anything we can look at in that regard.
Allan Meyer: This is where we’re grateful to have good lawyers good christian lawyers. In Murray Baird and Prolegis we have one of the best in the state and we’re seeking to make sure that everything we do Is done justly and rightly so that, at the end of it all, regardless of the outcome, no one can say they cooked the books, they played a funny game, they had their plan worked out, and they’ve manipulated to get to the plan.
That everyone can say these were straight shooters, they did what they could, they did what was right, they told the truth. They were not ashamed or afraid to name things for what they were and then let the chips fall where they may. I am not the ultimate and we are not the ultimate authority.
Jesus reigns. Jesus rules. And at the end of the day, the church is His. And Lord, we’re just seeking, we’re just seeking to be as [00:27:00] honourable and as straight as we can possibly be.
Former Member/Leader: Hi, to those that don’t know me, my name’s Michael. I’m one of the founding members of the church. And so I’ve known Larry for some time and everything you’ve said I would agree to. Um, I’ve experienced similar things. I haven’t had the opportunity to put a statement in because I only just became aware of this a few days ago.
But, my wife just said to me quietly, all we want is an apology. And I said, I’m not sure that’ll be forthcoming. What’s your thoughts about that?
Allan Meyer: There’s been a lot of work done with Larry and Christa, particularly by Peter in a very, in personally spending many, many hours in very, very penetrating conversations with them as a couple.
Not a stone or a rock has been left unturned. And as a result of that, both Larry and Christa are acknowledging things openly. [00:28:00] which at least is heartening. What the default position would be under pressure, who knows. That, that is yet to be tested. We’ll discover that in the next week.
But I would not overrule the thought that there may come a moment where he would be, capable and willing. And as Pete was saying, right, today is a day of resolution. Today’s the day we just, we lay the, we lay our propositions on the table. It’s not a day where we can claim:
like George Bush did at the end of one year of the Iraqi war, you know, the war has been won.
We do not have reconciliation at this point. But at least we’ll have resolution. We’ll name things for what they are and the membership will then decide about what kind of church they are willing to own. Reconciliation [00:29:00] has always been my hope. It has always, ever since I first heard
of your conflict, my hope has always been that leaders are capable of humility. They’re capable of telling the truth and saying, I damaged you, forgive me, I was wrong. And, in that context, everything is possible. And it is yet my hope that there will be a time where, at least for many of you, reconciliation will be possible.
Former Member/Leader: Two questions. One is, how many members, if you’re able to share, are currently attending Casey City Church now that you addressed just recently, or today, you said? And was it a surprise to those current members? Of what you just shared with us That you shared with them.
Allan Meyer: Let me leave that to pete because Peter will talk last and he’ll sum up his perspective on where we [00:30:00] are after today’s meeting I think i’ll leave that one to him.
Elder/Leader/Member: There’s one brief question. We keep talking about forgiveness and uh Saying they’re sorry and all that sort of stuff, but you can say you’re sorry without repentance. And I don’t believe that we can have reconciliation without true repentance.
Allan Meyer: It’s a great thought, and I’ll just, I’ll make one last comment.
One of the things I did with Larry some months ago, after Kevin sent me a link to a talk on DARVO, Deny, attack, and then reverse the victim and the offended. I sat down with Larry and I took him through the whole issue of DARVO and I said, and challenged him that this is your way of action. This is you, Larry.[00:31:00]
DARVO is a description of how you respond when you don’t want to hear what people have to say. At the end of it all, when we came to conversation about, reconciliation. Apologies, a genuine six step apology, where the, the key always to a six step apology is that you never start by saying, if I have hurt you, you start with, I said something to you that damaged your life.
In other words, a true apology begins with a naming of what you have done. And then an ownership of it. I, I’m not just saying, if I’ve hurt you, oh goodness, please forgive me. No, I had you in my office and what I said to you broke your heart. You own [00:32:00] it. Larry asked me a question. He said, then how can I apologize in a way that they will believe me?
Great question. And I said, they’ll believe you when they see your behavior begins to match what you were saying. And I repeat that to him. How will they believe you, Larry? And I don’t believe at the moment he’s capable of repentance. Cause I don’t think he yet fully understands how he damages people and what’s wrong with that.
And that’s where the culture becomes a problem because you gather people around you who are okay with that. That’s okay. It works for me. You know, I can live in a culture like that. I challenged them today on the issue of resilience. One of the reasons that they don’t understand the issue of trauma informed counselling is because they’re resilient [00:33:00] people.
So they can take a good beating and walk away from it and say, Oh, well, fair enough. And there are people who can do that. And if you can do that, you’re resilient. It’s not hard to live in a hostile or difficult or troubled environment and just find the inner energy to say, Oh, that’s okay. You know, people make mistakes.
He’s a bit of an idiot. Why should I be too concerned? And you just carry on. But not everybody is like that. And all it requires for trauma to impact a human heart is to be put in a situation where you are emotionally overwhelmed and you don’t know how to respond to what’s happening. And in that environment, damage is done to the human soul.
He doesn’t get that yet. And this is why we’re asking for his resignation. And it’s why we’re asking for two years. Because it would be a, there’s, there’s, there’s a good man in there. A damaged good man in there who had a heart to create something that could touch an entire community. He’s the founder of a significantly, [00:34:00] interesting and potent ministry, but he keeps on poisoning it from his own brokenness.
And somebody has got to say at some point, you need to step out and you need to address those inner issues. And for the sake of your wife, you need to do the same thing. So we would give them that opportunity and help them do that journey. Now the decision will be in their hands or in yours.
